Hallo InMemoriamLuangPu. Wir beide haben nun bereits mehrfach unsere Edits im Artikel Sala Kaeo Ku rückgängig gemacht. Dazu möchte ich das Folgende anmerken:

Wir haben uns her in der deutschsprachigen Wikipedia quasi darauf geeinigt, thailändische Schrift nach den Regeln des Roya Institute zu romanisieren. Das hat zwar einige Nachteile (จ wird zum Besipiel als ch umgesetzt), aber so haben wir eine einheitliche Richtlinie. Wer Zweifel hat, wie ein Wort in lateinischen Buchstaben wiedergegeben wird, kann sich auch das Romanisierungs-Tool der Chula-Uni herunterladen.

Also, wenn Luang Pu in Thailändisch als "หลวงปู่บุญเหลือ สุรีรัตน์" geschrieben wird, sollte eine Umschrift auch das ร (Ro Ruea) als R romanisieren und das เหลือ auch als luea (IPA: [lʉ̂a]), also "Luang Pu Bun Luea Su Ri Rat". Es ist vollkommen gal, wie der Name von der lokalen Bevölkerung oder in Laos oder in Afrika ausgesprochen wird; da die Aussprache überall variiert, kann es da ja keine einheitliche Schreibweise geben. Massgeblich ist in unserem Fall die thailändische(!) Schrift. Wir können ja als Kompromiss eine Aussprache mit IPA-Zeichen hinzufügen. --Hdamm 16:28, 27. Jan. 2008 (CET)Beantworten

Hallo Hdamm,

Sorry for replying in English: writing in German is a bit difficult for me. Please feel welcome to further reply in German, and thanks for your contributions!

Recently I've been trying to give some shape to the Internet resources on Sulilat. I've been tremendously impressed by his parks when visiting Thailand, and it's a shame how little known he is! So I've gotten as far as editing the German Wikipedia :-)

I'll give two reasons to support the spelling "Bunleua Sulilat":

1) This is most likely how *he* pronounced his name. It may not matter how his name is pronounced in Africa, but it does matter how it is pronounced in the Lao language (which is the same as the Isaan dialect of Thai), because he was born, lived and worked near the Thai-Lao border (on the both sides!). As far as I know, there is no R-sound is the Lao language, and both ร and ล are pronounced as [l]. So, I am not sure if the Thai spelling has any particular authority in this case. Why not Lao spelling?.. Also my understanding is that เหลือ is [lɯːa] (that's also how I heard Lao monks pronounce it). Transliterating [ɯ] is, of course, a problem, since there is no such sound in Western languages.

2) There is a huge problem with Sulilat's name being spelled in a million different ways on the Internet (and in the literature!). Basically, each new spelling makes it more difficult to find the relevant pages, and makes Sulilat still more obscure. Right now, the most widespread spelling is "Bunleua Sulilat", and I think it could be a good version to settle for.

Anyway, I guess I should defer the final decision to you (not being German, after all, nor an active member of Wikipedia). If, after all my arguments, you're not convinced, please feel welcome to change the page as you see fit... And thanks again for working on the Wikipedia project!.. InMemoriamLuangPu 17:13, 27. Jan. 2008 (CET)Beantworten

As I stated above: it is of no relevance, how somebody ponounces his name. As long as it is written with "ร" it is romanized with "R". You know, all database administrators have to take care of the consistancy of their data. Entries should ideally have just one key, or you'll get something what we call Tohuwabohu ;-)

If you wrote a Wikipedia article about "Bunleua Sulilat" and somebody else another article about "Bunluea Surirat" (BTW the Roya Institute has indeed a romanization of เหลือ as "Luea" - check the Chula-tool), …

The same IRL: as you've seen for yourself there are "a million different ways" his name is spelled in the Internet. If all authors would use the rules of the Royal Institute, you wouldn't have so many problems, finding appropriate infomation.

--Hdamm 15:21, 28. Jan. 2008 (CET)Beantworten

Sorry, Hdamm, but you're missing an important point again. Thai spelling has no authority in this case, since it's questionable to which extent Sulilat was Thai (he was a Lao national according to some sources). If you insist so much on applying Chula-tool to his name, you may as well apply it to yours, after first transcribing it in Thai. I don't think you'd be willing to do that...

By the way, I have not been able to figure out the exact spelling of Sulilat's name in Lao. If I did, it would have been included in the article... And you wouldn't have been able to apply Chula-tool to that...

So, with all the complications it's best to resort to common sense, and "Bunleua Sulilat" speaks very positively to my common sense (also currently being the most widespread spelling).

InMemoriamLuangPu 20:19, 28. Jan. 2008 (CET)Beantworten

Sorry sir, but its you, who is missing the point. This is not about transcribing anything from Latin script into Thai, but vice versa: from a definite Thai script to a definite Latin script. And as this article is part of Portal:Thailand, it has to be consistent with the Thai definition. If it was a Lao article, I would (probably) not object. As I said before, a different person may have quite a different view on "common sense" than you have. So which person is the representative one? And who decides, who is the representative one? We have in Thailand the authority of the Royal Institute, which is officially and internationally accepted. And by definition we use the rules of this authority in the German speaking Wikipedia (I'm quite sure, they use it in the English Wikipedia, too).

--Hdamm 09:43, 30. Jan. 2008 (CET)Beantworten

First, the question is not about the name of the article on Sala Keoku (which is located in Thailand, sure enough), but about the article on Sulilat. Why should the article on Sulilat (which hasn't been even written yet) be classified as Portal:Thailand rather than Portal:Laos, I am not sure.

Second, popular vote is often (though not always) a decent way to decide on "common sense", and, as of now, "Bunleua Sulilat" wins by popular vote.

By the way, as of now, "Bunluea Surirat" returns 2 distinct google hits, which means that no one is going to be looking for an article called "Bunluea Surirat" except for the unlikely Thai Royal Institute members interested in off-beat religious art from Isaan and preferring to read about it in German...

InMemoriamLuangPu 23:58, 30. Jan. 2008 (CET)Beantworten